Hello fellow Philosophers,
Mr. Wille went even further with this by relating the quote to his obsession with red pens. Mr. Wille likes red pens. "Why do you like red pens, Mr. Wille?" we asked him. He said that he likes red pens because they are red. If Socrates happened to be in our philosophy class at that moment, he probably would have asked "Is the pen loved by Mr Wille because it is red, or is it red because it is loved by Mr. Wille?"
How would you have responded, as a sophisticated and talented philosopher? Is there a difference between the two? If so, what is the difference? Is there a problem with this question? What would be your answer to this peculiar question?
7 comments:
I disagree with the answer that "pious is loved by the gods because it is pious". If the quoted statement above were true, it would imply that something is pious, therefore the gods love it. But this does not make sense to me, as being loved by the gods would be a prerequisite for it to be pious. I think that something is pious because it is loved by the gods. This implies that something is loved by the gods, therefore it is pious.
Regarding Mr. Wille's obsession with red pens, the answer to Socrates question would be that the pen is loved by Mr. Wille because it is red. The alternative (it is red because it is loved by Mr. Wille) would not make much sense because of the implication that Mr. Wille's preference of the pen causes it to be red. Since preference or lack of doesn't change the characteristics of the pen, we must use the inverse, the characteristics of the pen changing the preference. The pen being red caused Mr. Wille to like it, therefore it is loved by Mr. Wille because it is red.
I would say that the pen is loved by Mr Wille because it is red. The pen itself has to be red in order for mr Wille to like it. What the other is saying is that just because Mr Wille like that pen then it has to be red. When in fact the pen might be blue. Pious is loved by the gods because the action itself has to be pious in order for the gods to love it.
I would have responded by saying that the second statement of "It is red because Mr. Wille loves it." That is just a weird thing to say because there is probably no way of the pen being red because someone like it. Unless Mr. Wille made the pen on his own, it probably is a weird statement. The difference of the two statements is that the first is saying that the fact that it is red makes Mr. Wille like it so much. The second one is saying that the fact Mr. Wille loves the pen, it is red. My answer to the question would definitely be that the pen is loved by MR. Wille because it is red.
Okay Ali here is the comment i promised : Mr. Wille loves red pens because they are red. The pen is not red because Mr. Wille loves red pens. The pen is a physical inanimate object that can not change its own characteristics. However, Mr. Wille has his own opinions and red pens please him. I do not agree with your answer about why something is pious, because we never reached to a defnite answer in class. Also, Socrates questioned it to find the truth about what is piety, which he never did. -Angie P.
Keith: Nice job laying out the problem.
Angie: I think your comments are right on!
I say that Mr. Wille loves the pen because he perceives it as red. The pen would not be considered red by everyone, such as someone colorblind. While it is popular opinion that it is red, it is not the same to everyone. Under the condition that Mr. Wille loves red pens, he would love this pen because he believes it is red. If the only condition is for it to be red for him to love it, then he must love it. He could find exception if there is another condition, such as Mr. Wille loves red pens, but he does not love things that are covered in raw sewage, which I think applies to all of us (I hope). The second condition would most likely take precedence over the first, nullifying Mr. Wille's love for this pen. Poor pen. -Doug M.
I believe that Mr. Wille loves the pen because it is red, and not that the pen is red because Mr. Wille loves it. Regardless of whether Mr. Wille loves the pen, the pen is still red. Mr Wille's love of the pen does not cause it to be red.
I disagree, however, with Doug's statement that the pen is not red to everybody. The pen stays the same regardless of who is looking at it, and even if someone can not see that it is red, the pen still is red. Just like how mr Wille's love of the pen doesn't cause it to be red, one person's inability to distinguish red will not affect the pen's color, nor will it prevent that person from loving it.
-Malcolm M.
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